Comments on: The Results of the Community Workshops: The Breakdown http://www.nextstopstl.org/1504/the-results-of-the-community-workshops-the-breakdown/ A Conversation About Transit Wed, 08 Feb 2012 02:21:15 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jennifer http://www.nextstopstl.org/1504/the-results-of-the-community-workshops-the-breakdown/comment-page-1/#comment-376 Jennifer Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:40:44 +0000 http://www.nextstopstl.org/?p=1504#comment-376 Daron, density is relative, of course. Nothing in Missouri is "dense" compared to anything in Tokyo, for example. But you can look at <a href="http://movingtransitforward.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=k0SFMbWqSg4%3d&tabid=61" rel="nofollow">the population maps</a> (p.8) and see where people live & work. Much of that is linked to the roads, which makes sense. As far as on-off stations, please remember this is one possible way BRT could be implemented if, for instance, we wanted to use BRT as a sort of suburbs-to-business-core people-mover during high-traffic times of the day. In other places - Grand Avenue, for example - it makes more sense to use BRT more like LRT - frequent, all-day service that connects people in that corridor with important locations: large employment centers, bus transfer centers, MetroLink station, shopping areas, etc. Talking about specific designs and costs at this stage is just pie-in-the-sky speculation. I was merely pointing out that BRT on highways could be rather effective, in some situations & if implemented properly. None of this is going anywhere until the plan is finalized & adopted. Daron, density is relative, of course. Nothing in Missouri is “dense” compared to anything in Tokyo, for example. But you can look at the population maps (p.8) and see where people live & work. Much of that is linked to the roads, which makes sense. As far as on-off stations, please remember this is one possible way BRT could be implemented if, for instance, we wanted to use BRT as a sort of suburbs-to-business-core people-mover during high-traffic times of the day. In other places – Grand Avenue, for example – it makes more sense to use BRT more like LRT – frequent, all-day service that connects people in that corridor with important locations: large employment centers, bus transfer centers, MetroLink station, shopping areas, etc. Talking about specific designs and costs at this stage is just pie-in-the-sky speculation. I was merely pointing out that BRT on highways could be rather effective, in some situations & if implemented properly. None of this is going anywhere until the plan is finalized & adopted.

]]> By: Daron http://www.nextstopstl.org/1504/the-results-of-the-community-workshops-the-breakdown/comment-page-1/#comment-375 Daron Wed, 16 Dec 2009 05:57:59 +0000 http://www.nextstopstl.org/?p=1504#comment-375 Jennifer, I wouldn't call strip malls around highway exits "densely built up." Building dedicated ramps and stations in the middle of a highway would be very expensive, less effective, and less desireable. BRT is supposed to the be cheaper than a rail line solution that doesn't destroy a street. Dedicated ramps and fancy overpasses sort of defeats the purpose. The only way that this could be justified would be if the stops were designed as patches designed to heal the wounds made by the highways in our urban fabric. Most highways, for most of their length, cannot be walked across, so they are essentially giant walls slashing the city into unrelated sections (to non-drivers). If the stations provided high-traffic access from one side of the highway to the other, then a great cause would be served. Why didn't Metrolink expand down the middle of highway 64 with its construction? Money, yes, but also the trouble of getting out there would make it undesirable. There are some L stations in Chicago that drop you off in the middle of highways. It's not at all a nice place. Yes, we can customize our routes to local tastes, but our tastes are not TOD. Sending buses to places designed for drivers makes the buses less effective. Yes, in St. Charles and Jefferson County 'density' is close to the highway, but there isn't a sidewalk in sight to connect to. Jefferson County had a transit study a while back that came up with the awesome statement "Our residents do not wish to walk, and we will not spend money to make walking possible." ... So the buses go to parking lots... and the riders get off and nearly get killed dodging traffic. Broadway, not 55, please. The previous route to the park and ride lot on Richardson Road was no safe. Broadway-Kingston-Telegraph is slightly walkable and could be more so. Jennifer,

I wouldn’t call strip malls around highway exits “densely built up.”

Building dedicated ramps and stations in the middle of a highway would be very expensive, less effective, and less desireable. BRT is supposed to the be cheaper than a rail line solution that doesn’t destroy a street. Dedicated ramps and fancy overpasses sort of defeats the purpose.

The only way that this could be justified would be if the stops were designed as patches designed to heal the wounds made by the highways in our urban fabric. Most highways, for most of their length, cannot be walked across, so they are essentially giant walls slashing the city into unrelated sections (to non-drivers). If the stations provided high-traffic access from one side of the highway to the other, then a great cause would be served.

Why didn’t Metrolink expand down the middle of highway 64 with its construction? Money, yes, but also the trouble of getting out there would make it undesirable. There are some L stations in Chicago that drop you off in the middle of highways. It’s not at all a nice place.
Yes, we can customize our routes to local tastes, but our tastes are not TOD. Sending buses to places designed for drivers makes the buses less effective. Yes, in St. Charles and Jefferson County ‘density’ is close to the highway, but there isn’t a sidewalk in sight to connect to.
Jefferson County had a transit study a while back that came up with the awesome statement “Our residents do not wish to walk, and we will not spend money to make walking possible.” … So the buses go to parking lots… and the riders get off and nearly get killed dodging traffic.

Broadway, not 55, please. The previous route to the park and ride lot on Richardson Road was no safe. Broadway-Kingston-Telegraph is slightly walkable and could be more so.

]]> By: BillikenAron http://www.nextstopstl.org/1504/the-results-of-the-community-workshops-the-breakdown/comment-page-1/#comment-374 BillikenAron Wed, 16 Dec 2009 03:32:03 +0000 http://www.nextstopstl.org/?p=1504#comment-374 "Imagine what would happen if a Metro station or stop was so nice that developers competed to build up next to it!" To take it a step further, what if private developers competed to build and maintain them? Perhaps the state legislature would consider granting tax credits to developers willing to include transit centers, stops, etc to an existing project. Private developers seem to love to emptily promise mass-transit as part of their grand designs (looking at you Mr. McKee), but they are never held to any of these promises. With everything Pinnacle Entertainment is building in Carondelet/Lemay for the new River City Casino, would a nice transit center have been all that hard to include with some incentive? “Imagine what would happen if a Metro station or stop was so nice that developers competed to build up next to it!”

To take it a step further, what if private developers competed to build and maintain them? Perhaps the state legislature would consider granting tax credits to developers willing to include transit centers, stops, etc to an existing project.

Private developers seem to love to emptily promise mass-transit as part of their grand designs (looking at you Mr. McKee), but they are never held to any of these promises. With everything Pinnacle Entertainment is building in Carondelet/Lemay for the new River City Casino, would a nice transit center have been all that hard to include with some incentive?

]]> By: Noel http://www.nextstopstl.org/1504/the-results-of-the-community-workshops-the-breakdown/comment-page-1/#comment-373 Noel Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:32:27 +0000 http://www.nextstopstl.org/?p=1504#comment-373 I would like to chime in with support for reconsidering the removal of streetcar options. From a personal, pragmatic perspective, I invest in infrastructure. I bought my house because it was near a MetroLink stop. The Loop grew up because it was on a streetcar route, and that's where I shop and eat now. A bus is not infrastructure. A streetcar is. The 91 Olive is a great example of a good bus route. The 99, 70, and the Delmar bus (61?) should be streetcars. They plug Metro into a web at a dense local set of blocks. I think there are multiplicative effects that occur when you have that kind of variance in service density. If you would, consider each mode of transportation as suited for a particular scale and development (I'm sure this is nothing new for you Courtney, or other Metro planners!). At the smallest scale, people walk. For a dense set of blocks, a streetcar service. For a shuttle-style service, buses are great. For hopping from one dense area or destination to another, light rail service. Finally, but still regarding infrstucture, please continue to invest in: Increase transfer stations More security and lighting Benches and shelters Everybody appreciates shelter, nice human-level touches (heaters on MetroLink platforms in the winter!), and a feeling of security. Imagine what would happen if a Metro station or stop was so nice that developers competed to build up next to it! I would like to chime in with support for reconsidering the removal of streetcar options. From a personal, pragmatic perspective, I invest in infrastructure. I bought my house because it was near a MetroLink stop. The Loop grew up because it was on a streetcar route, and that’s where I shop and eat now. A bus is not infrastructure. A streetcar is.

The 91 Olive is a great example of a good bus route. The 99, 70, and the Delmar bus (61?) should be streetcars. They plug Metro into a web at a dense local set of blocks. I think there are multiplicative effects that occur when you have that kind of variance in service density.

If you would, consider each mode of transportation as suited for a particular scale and development (I’m sure this is nothing new for you Courtney, or other Metro planners!). At the smallest scale, people walk. For a dense set of blocks, a streetcar service. For a shuttle-style service, buses are great. For hopping from one dense area or destination to another, light rail service.

Finally, but still regarding infrstucture, please continue to invest in:
Increase transfer stations
More security and lighting
Benches and shelters

Everybody appreciates shelter, nice human-level touches (heaters on MetroLink platforms in the winter!), and a feeling of security. Imagine what would happen if a Metro station or stop was so nice that developers competed to build up next to it!

]]> By: Courtney http://www.nextstopstl.org/1504/the-results-of-the-community-workshops-the-breakdown/comment-page-1/#comment-372 Courtney Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:50:11 +0000 http://www.nextstopstl.org/?p=1504#comment-372 Just as an FYI, the MetroBus #99 Downtown Circulator functions a lot like a downtown streetcar in other communities. It runs every 8 minutes, and travels along 4th, Broadway, Washington Ave and Tucker. We are working with marketing to find ways to get out the word, make it a more appealing service. I'll be out making a photo tour of the route today. It is not a streetcar, but the overall cost to operate is far lower. Just as an FYI, the MetroBus #99 Downtown Circulator functions a lot like a downtown streetcar in other communities. It runs every 8 minutes, and travels along 4th, Broadway, Washington Ave and Tucker. We are working with marketing to find ways to get out the word, make it a more appealing service. I’ll be out making a photo tour of the route today. It is not a streetcar, but the overall cost to operate is far lower.

]]> By: Herbie http://www.nextstopstl.org/1504/the-results-of-the-community-workshops-the-breakdown/comment-page-1/#comment-371 Herbie Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:27:11 +0000 http://www.nextstopstl.org/?p=1504#comment-371 Who said streetcars are merely local projects in scope? St. Louis used to have streetcars running all the way to Kirkwood, Ladue, Ferguson, and Creve Coeur Park. BRT is being considered as an option for Grand. A streetcar option should be examined as well. Who said streetcars are merely local projects in scope? St. Louis used to have streetcars running all the way to Kirkwood, Ladue, Ferguson, and Creve Coeur Park. BRT is being considered as an option for Grand. A streetcar option should be examined as well.

]]> By: Courtney http://www.nextstopstl.org/1504/the-results-of-the-community-workshops-the-breakdown/comment-page-1/#comment-370 Courtney Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:02:42 +0000 http://www.nextstopstl.org/?p=1504#comment-370 And your feedback is very important, not just for discussing what we did talk about, but also what we didn't. It's obvious from people's interest that a conversation on streetcars in St. Louis needs to happen. And your feedback is very important, not just for discussing what we did talk about, but also what we didn’t. It’s obvious from people’s interest that a conversation on streetcars in St. Louis needs to happen.

]]> By: Courtney http://www.nextstopstl.org/1504/the-results-of-the-community-workshops-the-breakdown/comment-page-1/#comment-369 Courtney Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:59:57 +0000 http://www.nextstopstl.org/?p=1504#comment-369 Herbie, the reason planning did not include streetcars as an option is because, at this time, we focused on transit solutions that are more regional in nature. The workshops were designed to examine regional preferences. That does not mean streetcars have no future in St. Louis, nor that they can't be very effective local projects. If the community wants to see a streetcar in an urban corridor like the Northside-Southside, that would be studied by East-West Gateway Council of Governments. We certainly do hear from people like you interest in streetcars, and hopefully that is something that East-West Gateway and communities are hearing as well. Herbie, the reason planning did not include streetcars as an option is because, at this time, we focused on transit solutions that are more regional in nature. The workshops were designed to examine regional preferences. That does not mean streetcars have no future in St. Louis, nor that they can’t be very effective local projects. If the community wants to see a streetcar in an urban corridor like the Northside-Southside, that would be studied by East-West Gateway Council of Governments. We certainly do hear from people like you interest in streetcars, and hopefully that is something that East-West Gateway and communities are hearing as well.

]]> By: Herbie http://www.nextstopstl.org/1504/the-results-of-the-community-workshops-the-breakdown/comment-page-1/#comment-368 Herbie Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:40:31 +0000 http://www.nextstopstl.org/?p=1504#comment-368 I think it's incredibly disappointed and short sighted of Metro to completely omit streetcars from the Moving Transit Forward workshops. Every single other mode of transit and more (flex routes?) were included for discussion, but not a peep about streetcars. No one can give their opinion on the matter if you don't list it as an option in the first place. I think it’s incredibly disappointed and short sighted of Metro to completely omit streetcars from the Moving Transit Forward workshops. Every single other mode of transit and more (flex routes?) were included for discussion, but not a peep about streetcars. No one can give their opinion on the matter if you don’t list it as an option in the first place.

]]> By: Jennifer http://www.nextstopstl.org/1504/the-results-of-the-community-workshops-the-breakdown/comment-page-1/#comment-367 Jennifer Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:29:08 +0000 http://www.nextstopstl.org/?p=1504#comment-367 Well, Daron, be happy then! Metro is discussing TOD at these meetings. If you take a look at the <a href="http://movingtransitforward.org/whatsmyrole/publicworkshopsround1.aspx" rel="nofollow">slides from the first round</a>, that's one of the primary discussions. We're not just interested in buses and trains, but getting people to our stations and stops. As far as BRT on highways, the fact that people are drawing routes on highways doesn't mean that's how things will run. Remember, this round of meetings is to present the findings from the first round of public input, solicit feedback, and discuss the challenges and the science of implementing some of these service ideas. There are all sorts of ways that you can build BRT, including running on highways in dedicated lanes with stations that have their own exit/entrance to & from the highway so it's a quick on-and-off regardless of traffic conditions. The beauty of building a regional transit system is that we can customize it however it best suits our region! We have lots of options and nothing has been chosen yet. Another thought is that we can't build everything on that map all at once, obviously; so in an area with big demand for an express transit mode, we could always put express routes there, with regular Urban buses or the bigger, low-floor articulated buses. Just remember that the highway "corridors" are just that - areas that have been influenced and developed based around the highway system. They are naturally where the highest density of development is occurring. A transit system can be used to serve denser areas and also be used to promote density and growth in targeted areas at the same time. Well, Daron, be happy then! Metro is discussing TOD at these meetings. If you take a look at the slides from the first round, that’s one of the primary discussions. We’re not just interested in buses and trains, but getting people to our stations and stops.

As far as BRT on highways, the fact that people are drawing routes on highways doesn’t mean that’s how things will run. Remember, this round of meetings is to present the findings from the first round of public input, solicit feedback, and discuss the challenges and the science of implementing some of these service ideas. There are all sorts of ways that you can build BRT, including running on highways in dedicated lanes with stations that have their own exit/entrance to & from the highway so it’s a quick on-and-off regardless of traffic conditions. The beauty of building a regional transit system is that we can customize it however it best suits our region! We have lots of options and nothing has been chosen yet. Another thought is that we can’t build everything on that map all at once, obviously; so in an area with big demand for an express transit mode, we could always put express routes there, with regular Urban buses or the bigger, low-floor articulated buses. Just remember that the highway “corridors” are just that – areas that have been influenced and developed based around the highway system. They are naturally where the highest density of development is occurring. A transit system can be used to serve denser areas and also be used to promote density and growth in targeted areas at the same time.

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